Pulled by police - Refusing to sign paperwork

[berrgk]

So, I get pulled for a missing L-plate on my bike but didn't sign or accept the producer ticket - The officer told me I wouldn't be able to produce the documents if I didn't take it. So I didn't take it. I didn't want to produce my documents or accept the 3 points & £60 fine.
The officer threatened to arrest me so I got my camera out & told him I was going to record - He promptly left the scene without handing me the ticket.

It is my understanding that I did not make any contract with them & am therefore not obliged to produce any documents, pay any fines nor accept any points.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of possible outcomes of this situation?
I feel like I should just ignore everything he said and wait to see if I get a court summons & then seek to request proof of any offences committed.
Thx.

I will keep this post/thread updated.

[Offthegrid]

I am on my last 3 points for speeding,and have refused to accept or sign paperwork on the last two stops on my bike,as far as I can see I have everything to lose,and nothing to gain by doing so.The last stop was just over 8 weeks ago, and have still not heard anything,that's not to say I wont, but the stop before that was over 6 months ago.I too have been angrily told " I won't be able to produce my documents without accepting his paperwork"which I think is BS because if it goes in his docket then I should think it would get passed down the line as a record,but I do think it wouldn't be "legally" binding if its not signed. so,its a case of you either do as your told,and pay your fine and get your points(a certainty) or,take your chance and wait,although you could risk getting a bigger fine and extra charge for "not producing" etc.The choice is yours.
Sadly it seems there are no hard and fast rules mate,all you can do is follow the path you think you can walk.
Good luck with it anyway.
otg

[delbertwilkins]

Thankyou for sharing your story berrgk.
This is one example of how to deal with the police or anyone else who thinks they have a right to tell you how your reality should be.
Notice how berrgk didn't quote any law, didn't claim any `common law juristiction` and didn't claim they were a `freeman-on-the-land`- and walked away with no arrest, no ticket and was even told how not accepting the paperwork means he cannot`produce` his documents (which is nice to know).

What is really going on is that these `characters`- known as police officers, are simply trying to convince us that the reality they have be trained to believe in, laws, procedures, criminal understanding is more valid that your reality and what you believe. Whoever has the strongest reality in an interaction, wins. This is why there is so many laws, so many procedures, so much symbolism and ritualistic methods in laws and in courts- its all a distraction to convince you that your reality is wrong and theirs is more valid- which is false and an attempt to distort your reality.

You do not need to be a lawyer or know anything about their laws or acts or their words that they redefine each year to deal with any situation affectivly and to create the outcome you desire- afterall, YOU are the one creating your reality, not these `idiots`.
With no spouting of the law- berrgk managed to have a police office turn around and literally give up and walk away- no violence, no trying to correct the police officers view and no arguement.

The `matrix` these characters reside in isn't real, so there is no need to fight or protest against it- its-not-real.

[legaleagle]

Hi the possible outcome (I say possible because it is up to the officer if he reports you or not) is a summons to court for the lack of L plates. the maximum penalty is £60 fine and 3 points for each missing L plate. The maximum penalty for failing to produce documents is £1000 for each document.

Hopefully you'll be alright and the officer won't report you for either, it is possible that as he is not required to offer you a fixed penalty ticket and as to issue you with a ticket he just decided to report you for summons for the offences.

He should however have left you with the notice to produce the documents. Although I have known of cases where officers have not done so.

There is no requirement for you to sign, just for them to offer you the chance too.

[berrgk]

Thanks for your replies.

Offthegrid: It's good to hear you have not received any further hassle since refusing to contract with them. You're right about being in an everything-to-lose situation. Well played.
How long do you think it'll be before you feel like nothing will come of it?

delbertwilkins: I agree with your comments. It was quite apparent the acting officer was not in the mood for conversation, he was just trying to generate revenue like he's been trained to do. I remained calm & made it clear that I understood he was just trying to do what is expected of him & that I was not arguing but looking out for my own interests, too. -To the point which gave him no claimed authority over me.

legaleagle: Your comment gave me the idea of taking a camera into the police station & showing them all of my documents, just for observation & a witness confirmation that I did not fail to produce my documents, as requested by the acting officer - I will of course not have a ticket/contract so they are not allowed to take them from me or issue any penalty. It will be something I am doing of my own free will as a good will gesture for the officer which requested me to do so in order to remain in honour in every way possible.
He failed to caution me & I did not sign or receive a ticket.
If I then still get a summons I will take the position of the authorised administrator of the account in question & be requiring proof of contract or proof of offence committed or there will be a motion to dismiss.

[legaleagle]

I agree that producing your documents at a police station and getting some kind of proof is an excellent way to nullify any attempt to prosecute you for this offence.

I'm afraid I don't get the rest of it about asking them to prove you contracted with them (I know I'm a bit thick ) your evidence should eliminate any court case to do with producing documents. As to if you will be reported for not having L plates, my guess is if he was a normal officer then no you won't as he will almost certainly have more pressing things to do (like citing up old ladies! I'M JOKING ) If he was a traffic cop then I would expect him to report you as this is his bread and butter (to use their phrase.) It is one of those things that is hard to predict.

If I was you though I would put L plates on ASAP, as I have known police officers to pull the person again and summon them for the offence. Almost certainly the CPS will put the two summons together in the one court case, which means two sets of officers who have (allegedly) seen you commit the offence and if you are found guilty that (potentially) is four counts which is 4 x £60 fine and 4 x 3 points.

That is just what I would do

[berrgk]

I replaced the broken rear L-plate btw. It snapped off after hitting the back wheel a few times on speed bumps an chit.
See, my issue here is that a corporation is going to attempt to take money from me for something which was in no way a danger to anyone, caused no harm, no loss & no damages but they expect me to suffer a loss, for their gain.

I took all my documents & photographic part of the licence to the station today. A WPCO at the front desk was not happy about me filming & would not help me in any way unless I had a ticket.

I got straight back in the queue an spoke to a friendly policeman who was ok with me filming but said it was unnecessary as he was happy to write a confirmation letter which states the date, time, my name, listed the documents I had brought & I.D, confirmed it was in-fact me, put his name & signed it.
He was a nice fella.. respectable gentleman.
Hopefully I don't need to use it.

Does anyone know how things go in the U.K courts if you were to present yourself as the administrator of the account (Mr.X XX) & say you were also not acting in the capacity of the named licensed citizen at the time of the alleged offence & were in-fact travelling as a sovereign being using your private property, not bound by the 'road traffic acts' - holding a license only for the option to act in the capacity of which is defined within the license agreement if you oneday may choose to. ?

[legaleagle]

Sorry I can't help with the last part. If you have a confirmation letter for the documents and have sent off for the replacement licence then this can be produced in court as proof that you have done everything that is in your power to produce the documents in question. It isn't a definite defence but so long as you get decent magistrate you should be ok if that went to court. To ram home the point I would take in the full licence when it arrives and get proof you have done it. Then it would be a pretty hard magistrate that could say you have not gone out of your way to comply.
Did the officer take any pictures of the L plate? did you give a statement to them admitting you had not got the L plate? and was it just the one officer who noticed it? If the answers are No, no and yes then unless the officer was a traffic cop (white hat) I would be very surprised if you hear any more. even if it was a traffic cop he is fairly unlikely to want to go to court for this.

I hope it goes well. I'll keep my fingers crossed

[Etype]

I like Delberts answer best

legaleagle wrote

If he was a traffic cop then I would expect him to report you as this is his bread and butter (to use their phrase.)

Of course it is they get points for it. and what do points make?

Nick Nick Nick! To quote a well known comedian

Seriously if you are going to court read up first.

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=52655

Best regards

Freeman Simon

[enegiss]

just say no, and they will all go away when they realise that no means no, the magistrates are a poor joke in bad taste, i wouldnt let them decide when to blow there own noses as thats what the clerk is for