Vaccines - The True Weapons of Mass Destruction

[wat tyler]

Jobo,

I am very prepared to comment on your claim that vaccinations have removed the smallpox from threat to human beings. A claim which I think is completely false. But you have still not answered the two questions I have been asking since this thread began.

As far as Polio is concerned, just read this thread again Jobo and you will find that I have TWICE posted to show that the history of Polio vaccination has been a disaster. If you still can't find it just let me know and I will post this for a third time.

You again claim that diseases eliminated in Western Europe were due to vaccination programmes. This is simply untrue Jobo. What is the evidence of this ? You say that Polio, Diptheria and Tuberculosis were eliminated by vaccinations. I strongly disagree.

Nor do I deny the average life span has increased greatly since 1853. I've said this TWICE already Jobo. In fact I gave reasons for it. If you haven't read them let me post them for a THIRD time.


You ask whether it's a remarkable coincidence these diseases expired naturally just at the point where they started vaccinating against them. Well, I do not agree with your basic belief. That these diseases were greatly reduced at or around the time of vaccination programmes is certainly true. For sure. But what evidence have you they were reduced as the direct or indirect result of vaccination programmes rather than other causes ? I've asked this of you FOUR times and we still have no answer from you.

Scurvy is not a virus, true. But I never said scrurvy was a virus, did I ? It was given as one of many examples of diseases which have been naturally eliminated over the centuries. And, speaking of natural elimination of diseases, this happens to every viral epidemic which has ever occurred. It has nothing to do with vaccination programmes. And until Jobo provides some evidence to the contrary I reserve the right to say that Jobo has no evidence to produce for us.

I do know what a virus is. And, honest, the pharmaceutical industry has no more relationship to medicine than does Darwinism to the history of living things. Don't believe the hype. Vaccination programmes are a total waste of time and money. They CAUSE more illness and death than virtually any other source. The Swine Flu epidemic is a classic case of misinformation, contradiction, big bucks, false diagnosis, panic and downright fraud. Those who have died so far are virtually all suffering from complications associated with other illnesses and their defence mechanisms against illness were knocked out by the vaccination. So suggests the evidence. As usual.

Now, let's see some evidence from Jobo for vaccines against vaccination programmes knocking out lots of these damaging viral illnesses. This is starting to wear a bit thin, isn't it ?

Thank You

Wat Tyler

[jobo]

thanks for finally dismissing my small pox missive i now have something to work with.

the evidence is empiric, which in reality is the only evidence worthy of consideration

small pox had been going 12000 years starting in north Africa and spreading via the trade routes all over Europe, the Middle east Asia and finally the New World

in the mid 1800s the north European death toll was circa 400,000 pa. vaccination the programs started circa 1850 and by 1910 the death toll had dropped to a few dozen ie 50 years after mass and compulsory vaccinations, the disease was all but eliminated and several millions more people were alive as a result

however disproving you theory of the disease expiring naturally, the rest of the world continued to suffer, however and this is key to the case, Europe was not reinfected despite the increasing movement of peoples around the globe and particularly the significant movement of peoples in to Europe from countries were the disease was prevalent during the first world war (Great war )

100 yes that one hundred years after the the rates in US and Europe had stated to diminished 800 million people had died in the rest of the world of this ailment

so just in case you missed the issue, annual death toll in europe 400,000 in mid 1800, 50 years after inocs started death toll 0, mean while between 1900 and 1980
400 million people died in the rest of the world

you cant explain this with any the disease was on the wane nonsense the only places which didnt have a significant small pox problem were the ones which had vaccinated

then just in case you decide to invoke the living conditions arguments, there was NO significant increase in quality of life issues in this country between 1850 and 1900, quite the opposite as the towns become more crowded


any way to further make the case, in 1950 WHO started vaccination in southern and central America and small pox was eradicated in all but 4 countries in under a decade
the fact that 4 countries didnt have the disease eradicated laughs at you natural demise points

perhaps the most impressive example was the treatment in the indian subcontent in the 60s were 150000 people toured the country adminstering vaccs and eradicated the disease in under a decade, but pride of place goes to Sierra Leone which by the ealy 60a was the most poxy place on earth, it took 9 months for the vacination programme to go from pandemic to 0,


so whats wrong with you arguments

the diminishing of the disease ONLY occurred after a vaccs program was undertaken, there was no notable improvement in living conditions India, sierra Leone, Latin America which coincided with this eradication of the disease

for your agument to work the fall off of the disease would have to have taken 150 years, not suddenly as you sugested, and go in the exact sequence of counties that were inoced

as empiric evidence go;s that's pretty conclusive in my view

[wat tyler]

And thank you Jobo for giving us something solid at last !

You say the evidence of smallpox being eradicated by vaccination programmes is empirical. And you say this is the only evidence worthy of consideration. Great, let's discuss this view of yours in some detail.

I want to begin where you say -

Smallpox had been going 12000 years starting in north Africa and spreading via the trade routes all over Europe, the Middle east Asia and finally the New World

Well, I disagree with this. These vast ages of 12,000 years are based on a Victorian system of dating human and organic remains which is circular. Namely, on assuming the Pleistocene period ended around 10,000 BC. Which is completely wrong. In fact the end of the Pleistocene period occurred only around 2,000BC (4,000 years ago) and it was still ongoing until around 800 BC. At which time modern oceans reached the levels we know today. So that the end of the 'Ice Age' was not a prehistoric but a historic event. As is confirmed by a mass of evidence.

Anyway, what you want us to believe is that Smallpox has been around for as long as recorded human existence. Which I of course agree is true. Nobody disputes that. And, since you are interested in facts Jobo the common cold has been with us for the same period of time.

There is, however, no evidence that Smallpox was a major epidemic in human history until the industrial revolution. So the date you have given us of a north European death toll of c. 400,000 people per year from smallpox was NOT typical of human existence and it would be grossly misleading to suggest that human history before 1800 was repeatedly devasted by epidemics of Smallpox. In fact (and you might show us otherwise ?) the first date for which you or your sources can produce evidence of a smallpox epidemic is the one you have just given us, around 1800. The very time when working class people were living in often atrocious conditions with poor sanitation, harsh working conditions in the early factories, a lack of drinking water, poor ventilation and diet. Is it not ?

The vaccination programme to which you refer started (as you say) around 1850 and by 1910 the death toll had become insignificant. This, you say, due to 'compulsory vaccinations'.

Well, no. I strongly disagree. If we examine these basic figures again we see -

1. In 1800 an estimated 400,000 people in Northern Europe were dying of Smallpox
2. 50 years later came the first 'vaccinations'
3. 60 years after the first 'vaccinations' the numbers of those dying from Smallpox was insignificant.

Now, Jobo, every epidemic, you surely agree, ends. The so-called 'Spanish Flu Epidemic' of the early 20th century. This ended, did it not ? After it killed millions of people, that is. But are you suggesting that it (and Smallpox) ended BECAUSE of vaccinations ? Surely not ! It ended because (I suggest) each and every viral epidemic lasts for a certain period of time, after which it will disappear, naturally. Whether we are vaccinated or not.

Now, let me ask you this. Does a Smallpox vaccination cure a person who has Smallpox ? Does it prevent them from catching it ? Does the Smallpox vaccine weaken the bodies own defence mechanisms and contribute towards the death of the individual is vaccinated IF THAT PERSON IS ALREADY ILL ?

You have shown us no evidence that Smallpox was eradicated by vaccination programmes. You have only showed us that Smallpox was a virus which, within a century or so of it being an epidemic, was no longer an epidemic. Half way through this period of over a century a programme of forced vaccination was begun. Which cured NOBODY who already had the disease. In fact, the whole idea was to prevent people from catching it. Right ?

I strongly suggest each and every viral epidemic is dealt with naturally, by nature itself, whether we have vaccination programmes or not. That a virus of whatever kind will, eventually, be neutralised because it has no independent existence and because it cannot live independently but only on its host. A host which has its own defence mechanisms which, over a period of time, destroy the virus in succeeding generations. So that EVERY virus is inevitably reversed by a process which alredy exists within the gene pool that is completely natural. In fact, a virus destroys itself at the point where it consumes genetic information of its host. But this destruction of the virus occurs generations of viruses later.

Again, I strongly disagree vaccination programmes have any impact on the duration of a viral epidemic. In fact, they may cause only harm on the individual in neutralising the defence mechanisms of his/her body. Time after time those said in recent days to have died of 'Swine Flu' were already sick, ill BEFORE they were vaccinated. And that is a fact. Time we paid attention to THAT fact, right, Jobo ?

You refer to the fact that epidemics have sharply reduced after vaccination programmes. True. But I can show you that the bombing of cities sharply reduced after war ended. Or that the number of music concerts increased after 1918. To attribute the end of a viral epidemic to a programme of forced vaccination is, in my view, a circular argument.

Viruses come and go. We must eat well and be healthy. Vaccines and the pharmaceutical industry take the credit for things which nature itself does. It's a scam. In fact it's far worse. These vaccines often kill our natural defences. As doctor after doctor has already testified. There are dozens and dozens of books saying so. And who disagrees with them ? Only the pharmaceutical industry. The same industry which claims to have identified and countered the virus. Which is a strange claim since, as already said, nobody has yet shown us an image of this Swine Flu virus. Or even an description of it.

I do not agree that vaccination programmes have eradicated ANY viral epidemic in the entire history of medicine. Nor do I believe your 'empirical' evidence proves otherwise.

Eat an apple a day or an orange.

Regards

[jobo]

I think we have a significant problem in communication as i keep getting little creationist clues which mean establishing time frames with you might be difficult but i really don't want to knocked of course at this point by arguing how old the world is

so lets stick to recorded history which we can probably agree on

your statement that small pox outbreaks were a product of the industrial revolution and were relatively unknow before this is nonsence, as there is numerous references to it across all the world

so here's just a few to be going on with, as im going out at 8 30 and il be here all night if i have to do small pox in Mongolia



Plague of Athens that occurred in 430 BCE, during the Peloponnesian Wars

Antonine Plague that swept through the Roman Empire and Italy in 165–180,

in the second century, returning roman soldiers brought the disease home with them to Syria and Italy, where it raged for fifteen years and greatly weakened the Roman empire, killing up to one-third of the population in some areas.Total deaths have been estimated at 5 million.
A second major outbreak of disease in the Roman Empire, known as the Plague of Cyprian (251–266),

The first incontrovertible description of smallpox in in northern Europe occurred in 581, when Bishop Gregory of Tours provided an eyewitness account describing the characteristic symptoms of smallpox. Waves of epidemics wiped out large rural populations through out Europe.



Around 400 AD, India recorded the disease The Indian epidemic was thought to be punishment from a god, and the survivors created a goddess, Sitala, as the anthropomorphic personification of the disease.


durring the 18th century ( before the industrial revolution) every seventh child born in Russia died from smallpox.

1521 smallpox devastated the Aztec population. It killed most of the Aztec army and 25% of the overall population

1400 and something, Clumbus landed in the new world within a few years smallpox claimed between 60% and 90% of the Inca population,

1562, it ravaged the Chilean native population the natives lost between twenty and twenty five percent of their population.


In 1633 in Plymouth, Massachusetts,Mohawks in 1634,the Lake Ontario in 1636,the lands of the Iroquois by 1679[ the Native Americans were struck by the virus
wiped out entire population groups of Native Americans.


. During the 1770s, smallpox killed at least 30% of the West Coast Native Americans.
1780–1782 brought devastation and drastic depopulation among the Plains Indians.

Of the Aboriginals that traded at the Hudson and Cumberland houses, ninety-five percent died of smallpox. [
three quarters of the Ojibway situated west of the Grand Portage died from the disease.

The Cree also suffered a casualty rate of approximately seventy-five percent with similar effects found in the Lowland Cree.

A particularly virulent sequence of smallpox outbreaks took place in Boston, Massachusetts. From 1636 to 1698, Boston endured six epidemics. In 1721,

In the late 1770s, during the American Revolutionary War, smallpox returned once more and killed an estimated 125,000 people.

Smallpox hit Australia, killing around 50% of Indigenous Australians in the early years of British colonisation, and nearly wiped out the native population of Easter Island.

is that enough world wide, pre industial small pox epidemics for you or should i do china and India and Africa as well

hopes that proves the point

[Jargon buster]

The smallpox virus is alive and well in two labs
one in Atlanta USA and one in Moscow.

just in case!!!

Regards jargon Buster

[wat tyler]

Jobo,

We have no real problem in communication if you answer my questions and I answer yours !

As for your views on the dating of human existence, I base mine on a mass of evidence. Not least the fact that all the early civilizations of mankind began not later than the late 3rd millenium BC, including those of China, Sumeria, Egypt and others. This has not been contradicted by the discoveries of science although (you may agree) the dates of Egyptian dynastic history seem to be 'elastic'. In the early 19th century it was taught by the British Museum that the Egyptian civilization began around 7,000 BC. This was changed to around 5,000 BC in the 1920's and it currently stands around 3,100 BC. Not bad for a sceptic like you to say such things Jobo !

As for the age of the world, it is very ancient. But we are not talking of the age of the world but of mankind. Which seems to be quite different subject. The age of chemicals in a bag of cement may be very ancient though the cement itself may be only weeks old. And so on.

Anyway, on Smallpox. You say there are numerous references to Smallpox epidemics across all the world before 1800. MMMM And you provide us with the following examples -


Plague of Athens that occurred in 430 BCE, during the Peloponnesian Wars

Antonine Plague that swept through the Roman Empire and Italy in 165–180,

in the second century, returning roman soldiers brought the disease home with them to Syria and Italy, where it raged for fifteen years and greatly weakened the Roman empire, killing up to one-third of the population in some areas.Total deaths have been estimated at 5 million.
A second major outbreak of disease in the Roman Empire, known as the Plague of Cyprian (251–266).

These, Jobo, are examples of PLAGUE, are they not ? Do you, Jobo, make a distinction between Plague and Smallpox ? I hope you do.

And you say that -

The first incontrovertible description of smallpox in Western Europe occurred in 581, when Bishop Gregory of Tours provided an eyewitness account describing the characteristic symptoms of smallpox.

OK, so we started with epidemics over '12,000 years' and we are now already up to the year of 581 A.D. before the first description of smallpox. And that's about 10,500 years of any firm evidence for a smallpox epidemic, isn't it ? According to your own story.

You next say, ' Waves of epidemics wiped out large rural populations throughout Europe'. Really ? Which 'waves of epidemics of Smallpox' are you refering to ? You provide no evidence of dates, places etc etc. Does it get better ?

An epidemic in India, you say, around 400 AD.

We are then travelling on your magic carpet once again and the next reference you give us for a smallpox epidemic is around the year 1400. Fully a thousand years later ! So we are now only left with around 700 years of your '12,000 years'.

You say the Incas were wiped out by Smallpox. This introduced by those travelling with Christopher Columbus. I do not believe it. What evidence do you have in support of this ? If Smallpox wiped out the Incas why did it not wipe out Christopher Columbus and his colleagues ? Maybe they had been vaccinated ?

Which viruses which wiped out the native American Indians ? It may not have been Smallpox but the common cold, or flu or any other number of common ailments. That smallpox existed in the 18th century is already accepted.

And so we have come full circle.

I do NOT believe you have proved your point. You have reminded us that many illnesses, many contagions, may wipe out a population which has no resistance to them. We know this to be a plain fact. Nobody doubts it. Whether we are discussing Incas, Eskimos or anyone else. Nobody disputes this. But the claim you made of Smallpox having a 12,000 year old history of epidemics is not proved and I believe, as said, the first major Smallpox epidemics come from the 18th and early 19th centuries, around the time, in fact, of the early Industrial Revolution. That 'pox' was gradually identified and became the reason for the first vaccinations is also not disputed.

But please tell us Jobo. Did vaccinations for Smallpox ever cure anyone ? And what evidence have you that the current Swine Flu Vaccine being prescribed in vast quantities prevents the spread of any identifiable viral infection ? Since, how can a vaccine exist if the virus itself has not been identified and described ? I mean, what are we really talking about here ? You believe mass vaccinations work and we have huge holes in the story.

Perhaps you can finally provide us with this information ?

[FreeMind]

This debate has been very insightful and highlights alot of history of viral & bacterial diease.

i cant vouch for either point of view but only add my personal thoughts based on experience & intuition.

Vascces tend to get introduced at the the low point of disease (research measles) in other words after many have died but the disease is waning, we have vaccines appear.

Since 1936 vaccines became incorporated. Since then any of natures answers that cant be protein synthesized are debunked are simply buried. Nature proveides all the remedies but it all gets tainted as quack soup because big pharma cant get a license for it.....

[jobo]

i must point out as you keep alluding to it that I;m not putting forward a case for the compulsory vaccination for swine flu, though i may do that at another time

your statement which alluded to there being no significant out breaks of small pox before the industrial revolution has been debunked and bunk it was

you asked for examples of out breaks worldwide, not a chronological history of its spread though Europe in the dark ages,which is what you;ve been given and all your getting

the term plague and Im surprised you don't know this is a generic name which was given to out breaks of very contagious diseases before they invented the terms epidemic and pandemic, not the bubonic plagu,e which is just one of the many plagues to hit the world , including as Im sure you know the plague of boils to befall Egypt, as recorded in exodus, which is taken by many to be a reference to small pox

so the plagues of Athens etc are phrases used for a significant out break of small pox

As your a smart man ? im beginning to think your just having a laugh with some of the thing you say or your just egging on some of the more gullible members as a wind up ?

ps you keep saying it was active in the 18 century, thats the 1700s, a full hundred years before you say it was a problem, though id point this out so you dont embarrass yourself again

I avoided the 12000 year bit to avoid getting side tracked into another debate re age of the earth or indeed the last ice age, start another thread on that topic if you want to talk about it, so just recorded history then

re Columbus,One of the first discoveries about small pox, which lead to the creation of the vaccine was the observation that people who had contracted the disease and survived and there after their children and their children's children had varying amounts of immunity to the disease, therefore a significant portion of the Europeans having lived with the disease for well over a thousand years were not as susceptible to it by anything other than very close contact with an affected person

That said as significant number of the conquistadors did die of it.contracted usually as a result of raping the native women which brought on the close contact required

Where as the natives having no such antibodies from their parents, had no such immunity and contracted it at even the slightest contact and once it was within there communities they had no culture of isolation to prevent the spread, as had been developed by the Europeans, who would on the journey over there, throw overboard, any one even suspected of so having

i cant help it if your so dogmatic you wont accept written history and want to edit it so it supports your views, im sure that other rational contributors will see your just denying the the undeniable so you don't loose face

google a few things and there's reams and reams about about small pox through recorded history , im not sure where you got your strange views from, not you tube I hope ?.

for my next missive I'm going to dissect and then throw out you non sense about polio and meningitis being one and the same, see you tomorrow

joe

[wat tyler]

Jobo says he is NOT arguing for compulsory vaccination programmes but he might do so in the future. What a coincidence ! Let's hope he manages to identify the specific illness he wants to vaccinate against before he starts arguing for compulsory vaccination programmes !!!! Speaking of which, can he show us picture of the SPECIFIC virus causing the 'Swine Flu' epidemic ? It MUST exist, right, Jobo ? Or else how could they have already produced and be prescribing a Swine Flu Vaccine ???? Still waiting for THAT info Jobo.

Jobo who wants us to believe reports of Plague down the ages must be reports of Smallpox. Not the common cold. Not bubonic plague or influenza. And, although there are hundreds of different forms of plague Jobo wants us to believe the Conquistadors brought specifically Smallpox to South America.

He even argues in circles by saying -

'The term plague is a generic name which was given to out breaks of very contagious diseases before they invented the terms epidemic and pandemic, not the bubonic plague which is [u]just one of the many plagues to hit the world' [/u]

Er, yes Jobo, since plague IS a 'generic' term can you give us evidence that Smallpox was the cause of the Incas being wiped out by it when it may actually have happened for hundreds of reasons, including even the common cold ?

Well how about this ? Here are some symptoms of Smallpox -

After infection, symptoms may take from 7-17 days to appear for major types of smallpox. The virus begins growing in the bloodstream 72-96 hours after infection, but no obvious symptoms appear immediately.People who have contracted smallpox initially develop such symptoms as fever, body aches, headache, chills, and, particularly, backache. Over half of people with smallpox experience chills and vomiting. About 15% become confused. A rash appears 48-72 hours after the initial symptoms and turns into virus-filled sores, which later scab over. The process can take up to 2 weeks. Just after the rash appears, the virus is highly contagious as it moves into the mucous membranes. The body sheds the cells, and virus particles are released, coughed, or sneezed into the environment. The infected person can be infectious for up to 3 weeks (until the scabs fall off the rash). Live virus can be present in the scabs. After the scabs or crusts fall off (in 2-4 weeks), a depression or light-skinned scar remains. Early in the course of the disease, the rash and pus-filled sores can easily be mistaken for chickenpox. Lesions occur first in the mouth and spread to the face, then to the forearms and hands, and finally to the lower limbs and trunk. In contrast, rash from chickenpox progresses from the arms and legs to the trunk and rarely forms in the armpits, palms, soles, and elbow areas.

Is it your view, Jobo, that Conquistadors, already somehow suffering from Smallpox, started raping Inca women ?

No, the truth is you have no evidence Smallpox wiped out the Incas when, in fact, the biggest danger to the people of South America, history says, was their murder at the hands of the ruthless missions.

Looking forward to your missive on Polio.

Thank You

[jobo]

you having trouble with you basic comprehension skill at the moment

i said the conquistadors, caught the disease whilst rapping women, ie the women were in their incubation stage for the disease , please take a min to read thing properly or you will confuse your self even more