Non registered machine (vehicle), and what to do?

[ratbikerider]

Hello

I've been following this site and others for a while now, few years actually.

I have been using information I have found to help me against debt collectors for service providers who have breached contract and refuse to accept any wrongdoing, however there is something I can't find much information about.

As the name suggests, I am a biker. I'm currently building a 250CC diesel bike for a general runaround to get to work and back, and to nip across town at several hundred MPG of old chip pan oil.

I have been reading about de-registering vehicles, although I can't find too much about how sucessfull people have been with it.

I don't plan on registering it if I can help it, and I did find out about a court case where a man was caught driving (piloting is a better word) a small gokart on a quiet back road. Obviously it had no insurance, no VED and did not meet the normal standards of a road vehicle, however the court found him not guilty of breaking the Road Traffic Act as it was not a "road vehicle". The reasoning behind this was that to be a road vehicle, it had to meet criteria to be classified as such. The gokart had no lights, no mirrors, no horn, the exhaust system did not conform to any regulations, the tyres were not marked for road use and as the kart was so low, it could not be expected to travel along public roads where the road surface was deteriorated or raised (speed bumps).

Obviously the bike I am building will be able to cope with bad roads and speed bumps, and I would rather like to be able to inform road users of my intentions (indicating, brake lights and a horn), however I would assume that this would be considered "built for the road".

I am planning on insuring it using the frame number and engine number I will give it at the time of manufacture, to cover myself from 3rd party civil liability.

Anyone got any insight into how I may use the machine lawfully, without missing something and leaving myself in a shit pile legally? Apart from registering it in Poland to avoid having UK plates, or making it so low I can't get over a speed bump, is there any way of proving beyond reasonable doubt that a 2 wheeled machine with a horn, brake lights and indicators is not a VEHICLE as described under the RTA?

[bodge]

Well you could put a large pair of bulls horns on the front and claim its an agricultural vehicle I honestly dont believe its possible to ride or drive any vehicle "on the road" without registering, taxing and insuring it. Forget the go-kart thats a one off because I know someone who was fined 150 quid for driving his racing kart "on the road" (and that was even in a private cu-de-sac)I was arrested when I was 15 for driving a ford anglia IN A FKN FIELD! it was only because the farmer said "if they are in the field they are doing no harm"! (a proper bloke see) that I didnt get actually prostituted in front a bum feeling magi

[Thomas]

.

Take a look how Motocross bikes that are made for racing and not road use and how and what they do to make them into Enduro racing bikes which are made for the road and off road. Or circuit racing bikes for racing are used for the road. Or how people who make custom bikes such as choppers and what they do. The other legalese stuff is down to your own endeavors, or if it gets more sorted in time.


You may have to register it to get an MOT to see if it's road worthy, or you may be able to bypass the registering and just get it tested for road worthiness for your and others safety.

It would also need insuring before you can get road tax.

Last time I drove I didn't insure it (I used the garages insurance to tax it) Although the road tax may not all go on road maintenance etc, I like to pay my way. ( many say it would be better to put the road cost's on the fuel. But if they put any more taxes on the fuel, it would be that rich and heavy the vehicles wouldn't run on such a rich mix(only joking.)

The DVLA also now have a data base of registered vehicles that are on the road or SORN and thus those that are not insured, for a further non insured data base. Which I ignored at the time.

I can show how I could reimburse third parties in case of any damage caused. (Actually the so-called crown owe 99% of us many thousands each)

I can show the vehicle was mine and not stolen (with or without the registration; as it was already a registered vehicle)

I also have a License to show I'm proficient at driving (another safety issue, but getting more bureaucratic)

I was sent a letter for speeding 35 in a 30, (but always drove responsibly) I have a good defense and the case was ignored.

[Threadkiller]

I've been doing the "travelling" thing now for over 6 months, it's going well too, because you're building the bike yourself it's yours, you own it and all the rights to it because you built it with your own hands, it has never been nor will be involved in a contract with ANY government agency so here's what to do...

1) Notify the police you're going to be doing this, tell them (by copying and pasting into your letter) that you know about their oath of office and you accept it to be legitimate...then tell them that anything outside the scope of their oath is an offer to contract, tell them in advance you NEVER want to contract with them unless YOU approach THEM and ask for a SERVICE (contract).

2) Do the same with the DVA, they don't have oaths but the contract bit is true.

3) Do the same with the clampers...all of them, I know it's expensive to do but for peace of mind just do it.

In all your letters give them 7 days to reply with "proof of claim to the contrary" after the 7 days is up (give it 9 days all in) send them a letter stating the following "With the postmaster general as my witness I am serving you with a notice of estoppel, this means you, by default, have entered into a contract on MY terms which are :- (state your terms) if you breach this contract I will sue you in the queens bench division of the high court for no less than £30,000 (or whatever you want, just don't rip the arse out of it)"

MAKE SURE ALL YOUR LETTERS ARE SENT REGISTERED OR ELSE YOU CANNOT PROVE YOU EVER SENT THEM.

Good luck.

Ps. Diesel bike? Bit noisy but economical...nice work.

[Thomas]

I've been doing the "travelling" thing now for over 6 months, it's going well too, because you're building the bike yourself it's yours, you own it and all the rights to it because you built it with your own hands, it has never been nor will be involved in a contract with ANY government agency so here's what to do...

1) Notify the police you're going to be doing this, tell them (by copying and pasting into your letter) that you know about their oath of office and you accept it to be legitimate...then tell them that anything outside the scope of their oath is an offer to contract, tell them in advance you NEVER want to contract with them unless YOU approach THEM and ask for a SERVICE (contract).

2) Do the same with the DVA, they don't have oaths but the contract bit is true.

3) Do the same with the clampers...all of them, I know it's expensive to do but for peace of mind just do it.

In all your letters give them 7 days to reply with "proof of claim to the contrary" after the 7 days is up (give it 9 days all in) send them a letter stating the following "With the postmaster general as my witness I am serving you with a notice of estoppel, this means you, by default, have entered into a contract on MY terms which are :- (state your terms) if you breach this contract I will sue you in the queens bench division of the high court for no less than £30,000 (or whatever you want, just don't rip the arse out of it)"

MAKE SURE ALL YOUR LETTERS ARE SENT REGISTERED OR ELSE YOU CANNOT PROVE YOU EVER SENT THEM.

Good luck.

Ps. Diesel bike? Bit noisy but economical...nice work.

Thanks Mick,

How do you show the safety elements for you and others, and also how to reimburse third parties, if needed?

Not forgetting proof of ownership should someone claim theft and thus arrest.

[HVYMTL]

I'd say first off forget about trying to play the name game, they will call it a VEHICLE no matter what you want to call it, and they will try and make their rules for vehicles apply to it as well, and make you liable for whatever sums of money they feel like inventing.

The thing to understand about the word liable is that it if it had an opposite word, it would be "truthable"... as in whenever you hear that someone is liable, realise that there is a lie being told and that a person is "lie-able" if they are susceptible to believing that lie, or sufficient numbers of the people dealing with the situation are susceptible to believing the lie it or simply don't care that it is a lie.

I'm currently 4 weeks into a battle where my deregistered car was seized with no tax, MOT, or insurance and it's quite definitely a machine that can be classified as a VEHICLE... however instead of waiting for them to start proceeding up on me, and for a summons to turn up so I can go to their commercial pretend court room and be lied to by these people who believe that I am liable for something, I went straight on the offensive and issued them a NOTICE of UNLAWFUL SEIZURE, because in reality they have absolutely no right to steal my car, no matter what they call it or the action they took in depriving me of it. So far they are remaining silent and have failed to issue a NOTICE OF INTENTION TO PROSECUTE which is what they normally would do, and indeed have to do within 14 days of the incident in order to proceed to court.

The thread about what I'm doing is here : http://tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=39967

[Threadkiller]

Thanks Thomas, my mode of thinking and you can't deny it's the heart of the philosophy that brought you here too is...I'm responsible for my actions, if I can afford to buy, maintain and run a car then I can sure as hell contribute that money and my time to and 3rd party I might happen to cause injury to, if not jail me, don't like that reasoning don't drive it's an assumed risk regardless of your avenue of reimbursement for damages, my proof of ownership is this...order the DVA to issue me a copy of the v11 form they recieved from the previous owner with theirs and my details on it, in contractual agreement, stating he sold the car to me, want to know how to do that? Data protection act, freedom of information request...job done, next point ensuring my car is mantained, I'm a morally compassed fella who's been brought up in a family of mechanics and was involved in a 50mph smash where I have spinal injuries and would have been killed if my head hit even an inch more left, trust me my car will be in pwo and me a very very careful driver with a few years under my belt. I know I don't speak for everybody and there are people who will take advantage of this, that doesn't mean I am though.

HVYMTL I've not really had much experience finding out what people are doing to fight back, there isn't much experience to be gathered except getting stuck in really, the reason they say vehicle is because they are right but so is automobile, ever notice they never say it's not an automobile? They just ignore the fact you're using a different word to describe the same vessel, I haven't had the pleasure of being pulled over yet so I can't say I know what you mean but I know what to do when the time comes and I know it has nothing to do with driving laws and all to do with theft and breach of their oath of office without lawful excuse, I just like to cover my ass when it comes to preparing in advance and let everyone know what's going on before I do it and what avenue I will take when it comes to a claim...where I came up with £30,000 is not just the value of the car but the penalties acrued after the police and court procedure ie. detention, arrest, assault, theft, breach of my rights, breach of contract through estoppel, gross negligence, incitement to commit fraud, misrepresentation of public funds, so on and so forth. Individually those sums are small in stature but combined would equal roughly that.

[HVYMTL]

> ever notice they never say it's not an automobile?

Yeh, because they have to describe it as a VEHICLE because that's what the letter of the law pertains too. A lot of folks get distracted by that and start trying to play word games saying it's not a VEHICLE it's a private conveyance or an automobile or even a chariot... forget it, it won't work... been there done that, got the T-Shirt with "Mug" written on it. They will call it whatever it suits them to call it, whatever gives them the strongest position to attack from.

As far as I can see the law is being used like a game of cat and mouse, and there is only one way to win; don't be the mouse.

If you get pulled over and you sit and wait for them to come to you, your already on the defensive. I'd suggest immediately get out of the car, lock it and walk over to meet them. If they are going to arrest you they are going to arrest you, if they have to smash your window in to do it, all your doing is helping them show that your the defendant when what you need to do is turn them into the defendants.

When with them or in custody, just be polite, give them whatever they want and don't play any "Am I obliged to answer" games because that does nothing but piss them off and may result in you accidentally falling down a staircase that has no camera's etc depending on how brutal the officers your dealing with happen to be.

As soon as the scene is over, take whatever their claim is, turn it round by 180 degrees and start with the notices. If they have "seized" your car, then in so doing they have silently claimed that they have the right to steal your property, when you turn that round 180 degrees, you give them notice that they have unlawfully seized your property and that they don't have the right to steal your car.

At the very least you will probably confuse them long enough that they won't file a NOTICE OF INTENTION to PROSECUTE within the 14 day time limit, which means your driving licence will be safe and they cannot then proceed to court against you.

Where it goes from there is still something I am working on, what I need to know now is how to bring a prosecution against them for the unlawful theft of my property. If I can pull it off then we have a concrete way of turning the table on the Road Traffic Act such that the more of us that use the method the sooner that piece of shit legislation will have to be repealed because it's starting to cost them more money than they can make in revenue from it, and our public highways will be freely accessible again, something that is very important if we are to turn the tide of decline we have seen in the last 30 or so years and get our economy fired up and competitive again. (think what that nazi scumball adolf did with opening access to roads in pre ww2 Germany... we can do far better than that...)

[Threadkiller]

I agree with you all the way man I was also just showing how the word game is pointless...vehicle/automobile/car/motorbike/van/land boat whatever it's a vessel in admiralty regardless of what you want to say in court, I get that don't worry, I've got the mug T-Shirt also

The best way I think is exactly what you say, at the end of the day what they do is exactly what we're supposed to do only a lot of us in the beginning are too nice of people and nervous about it and rightly so it is pressuring in a sense, anyway, the way I'm going to handle them in future is the same way they do it, ignore what they say to you and assert your point regardless of what they say, if you're right don't just sit there and say you are, just as you say get out and lock the car, don't be hostile but you have a right to be irate, ask them to produce either reasonable articulable suspicion/a warrant or arrest you or else you're taking their name and badge number and issueing them with a civil claim for breach of contract, gross negligence and breach of oath of office etc depending on what else they want to do, balls in their court, if they say that they have authority under this law and that law then ignore that and just say something along the lines of "I don't care I'm still going to do what I said, unless you're going to produce either reasonable suspicion/a warrant/arrest me regardless and give to me in writing that I lawfully can't do what I'm doing for me to produce as evidence in court, if you're right you have nothing to worry about do you officer? Otherwise I'm leaving and you're not stopping me" Give them no more than 5 seconds to respond then just walk away, get into the car/on the bike/into your land boat and drive away, whatever they want to do they can do but it's only going to be added to the claim if they want to play hardball.

In the cop station I've learned don't even talk to them in a nice way until the case is done, if they really wanted to be your friend I dare say he/she will be civil the next time you meet, other than that shut your mouth and only open it to tell them "Regardless of what you say I'm still filing my claim as soon as you let me go and I'm not signing anything." You have no reason for any other word to come out of your mouth except maybe "are you going to physically assault me if I don't comply?" Literally there is no place for any other word on earth other than the ones mentioned, the rest is in your paperwork they'll already have recieved if you do it the way it's supposed to be done.

What way did they go on with you when they took you in? Or did they just take the car and do it through paperwork?

[HVYMTL]

Yeh, they just took the car because I didn't play any form of games with the cop who was doing the seizure. The only thing I did was reply to the caution by stating that I am not an agent of the government. Other than that one small fact my behaviour would basically be indistinguishable from someone who is totally in the dark about the whole thing and has normal non-criminal minded respect for the police and their authority.

I believe the way I have handled it is the correct way to deal with it.... use subtlety, they like to feel like they are in-charge and that they are doing their job right. If you upset either of those two feelings within them they are more likely than not to react badly.

As far as I know my car has not yet been crushed or scrapped and there is still a good chance I could win this thing and get it back, whereas if I had been beligerant it would probably be a small square cube of angry looking metal by now.

As far as I can tell they have made a claim they cannot support and now it's a battle over the concept of liability with their liability becoming greater the longer they fail to concede defeat. (just as they do unto us)

180 degrees... if we can stand in perfect honour throughout the matter, and teach others to do the same then we have a chance of forcing parliament to repeal the traffic acts. Remember it's not about public safety, that is bullshit made up to justify the wholesale highway robbery that that act really exists to facilitate. There are only two things that can possibly make our roads any safer; 1) better driver training and 2) better equipment... everything else is bullshit.