Sucess Stories

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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby oghene » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:11 pm

Malcolm Ramsay wrote:
oghene wrote:Here is a link to Blackstones commentaries on the Laws of England
http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/blackstone/

Thanks for the link oghene - I've added it to my bookmarks.
" Persons also are divided by the law into either natural persons, or artifical. Natural persons are such as God of nature formed us: artificial are such as created and devised by human laws for the purposed of society and government; which are called corporations or bodies politic."

This extends the meaning of the word 'person' so that it includes corporations, but it still includes natural persons - so there's nothing here to suggest that an 'artificial person' is created for us at birth. Just the opposite in fact; it makes it clear that when a law uses the word 'person', it refers to both natural persons and artificial persons.


True, and because there are 2 classes of persons, how do we know when a statutory instrument relates to a natural person or both!?!?
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby Malcolm Ramsay » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:05 pm

oghene wrote:
Malcolm Ramsay wrote:... when a law uses the word 'person', it refers to both natural persons and artificial persons.


True, and because there are 2 classes of persons, how do we know when a statutory instrument relates to a natural person or both!?!?

Unless it's clear from the context that it only refers to one, then 'person' will always refer to both - it will apply to human beings and to corporations. If they want to refer to only one they will say explicitly either 'natural person' or 'artificial person'.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby nannyknowsbest » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:24 pm

Well - I have a couple of successes to report.

The first (although only minor so - but bodes well) is with the bank I have a bit of a tiff (well a £500K tiff with actually).

I sent them a letter explaining the Law regarding what they were doing. Yesterday, I received a flood of letters from them offering all sorts of "discounts", suddenly re-activating certain accounts and just generally being ever so nice to me. I did phone them and told them that this was nowhere near enough (but a start), rejecting all their terms and, they simply agreed (without argument) to everything I said.

Then, today, I received a letter from the DVLA. They had tried to "fine" us £80 for being late in re-taxing one of our cars. I wrote to them explaining that, as they were a registered trading for profit company, I viewed the "fine" as an invoice, which I declined and returned to them (explaining that a fine may only be imposed by a lawful court). The letter simply stated that no further action would be taken and the matter was closed.

Proves the point that these people know the law and simply "try it on".

So - a success and, on balance, a couple of good days for a change.

Keep sticking it to them. They will simply go after the people who do not know their rights and leave us alone.
"Smile" they said, "It could be worse".

So I smiled - and it was worse.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby Star-Child » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:41 am

Malcolm Ramsay wrote:
oghene wrote:
Malcolm Ramsay wrote:... when a law uses the word 'person', it refers to both natural persons and artificial persons.


True, and because there are 2 classes of persons, how do we know when a statutory instrument relates to a natural person or both!?!?

Unless it's clear from the context that it only refers to one, then 'person' will always refer to both - it will apply to human beings and to corporations. If they want to refer to only one they will say explicitly either 'natural person' or 'artificial person'.



Hello Malcolm, where does it define that please / who said so, is that from a recent case or annotated statute judicial decision ? Thanks in advance


Perhaps instead of men/women leaving it to chance/ they could seek to get the other party to disclose what is the legal status they assume the party they allege any complaint against to be ? Job done then, all transparent . :idea: :?:
Happy Holidays !
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby Just Curious » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:42 am

nannyknowsbest wrote:Well - I have a couple of successes to report.

The first (although only minor so - but bodes well) is with the bank I have a bit of a tiff (well a £500K tiff with actually).

I sent them a letter explaining the Law regarding what they were doing. Yesterday, I received a flood of letters from them offering all sorts of "discounts", suddenly re-activating certain accounts and just generally being ever so nice to me. I did phone them and told them that this was nowhere near enough (but a start), rejecting all their terms and, they simply agreed (without argument) to everything I said.

Then, today, I received a letter from the DVLA. They had tried to "fine" us £80 for being late in re-taxing one of our cars. I wrote to them explaining that, as they were a registered trading for profit company, I viewed the "fine" as an invoice, which I declined and returned to them (explaining that a fine may only be imposed by a lawful court). The letter simply stated that no further action would be taken and the matter was closed.

Proves the point that these people know the law and simply "try it on".

So - a success and, on balance, a couple of good days for a change.

Keep sticking it to them. They will simply go after the people who do not know their rights and leave us alone.



Well done, nanny.

Care to share your correspondence with us? It would be nice to know the correct form of wording we need to use when dealing with these organisations.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby Malcolm Ramsay » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:42 pm

Star-Child wrote:
Malcolm Ramsay wrote:Unless it's clear from the context that it only refers to one, then 'person' will always refer to both - it will apply to human beings and to corporations. If they want to refer to only one they will say explicitly either 'natural person' or 'artificial person'.

Hello Malcolm, where does it define that please / who said so, is that from a recent case or annotated statute judicial decision ?

Hi Star-Child

It's just a normal rule of language. If you hear the word 'children' you don't wonder if it means 'boys' or 'girls', you just assume that it means 'boys and girls'. In the same way, once you accept, as the courts do, that the word 'person' can apply both to human beings and to corporations, then it has to be assumed that it does unless there is something in the context to indicate otherwise - otherwise you have no way of knowing what is meant.

I looked to see where the concept of a corporation being regarded as a 'person' derives from, but it seems to be so old that it is simply part of the foundation of the law; I found this in 'Law of Contract' (Cheshire, Fifoot & Furmston):
A prescriptive corporation is a body of persons which has been treated as a corporation from time immemorial but which cannot produce a charter of incorporation.


There are certainly some circumstances where the law does recognise a person as having a separate, artificial person; when they are appointed to some office. So, for example, the current Lord Chancellor is considered to be the same 'person' as the very first Lord Chancellor, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is considered to be the same 'person' as the very first Archbishop. And they can indeed treat the 'artificial person' as something they can put on and take off; they act sometimes as the private human being, and sometimes as the artificial person. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that something similar applies to everybody - the law has no need for it.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby nannyknowsbest » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:00 pm

Care to share your correspondence with us? It would be nice to know the correct form of wording we need to use when dealing with these organisations.


Well, the DVLA one, I more or less used one of the templates available here. Explained that a company cannot impose a fine, merely and invoice, returned their paperwork, declining the offer and got a reply stating that nothing more would be done - no explanation why not just - stopped (which is fine by me).

The Lloyds one was a little more complex (bearing in mind the history of the case). I sent a letter to their directors, explaining their clear breach of contract and detailing my losses. I headed it "Without Prejudice" (I read that somewhere - probably here), explained what they had done and were still doing and gave the 14 days to respond with my claim of £500K in losses and provable damages (not actually had a reply to that letter - or the 6 preceding ones yet). I then went on to explain that, should I be forced to take legal remedies for my losses, then I would also be requiring for them to prove their losses in support of any claim they may think they have against me.
Without further prompting or, even a reply to my letter, I simply received a flood of "offers" (all in my favour), reducing the alleged "debts" by massive amounts and suddenly opening accounts that I have not been able to use for 6 months.
Naturally, I have rejected all of these offers (as to accept would imply that I agree with the fact there is a debt owing) but, again, without prejudice, I have suggested that the re-opening of the accounts is a step in the right direction and would be willing to use them, provided that I do not have to agree with the balances on the - they agreed to that without question.
They are on the run now. I do not, in my wildest dreams think that they will simply "pay me some money", as that would have to come from their reserves (ie: It would be real money). I do however. expect them to simply write off the negative balances and release the securities they hold - which will earn me around £165K and - they will lose not a penny.

I feel that a pragmatic and balanced approach, backed by a knowledge of one's lawful rights and duties, is the way to prevail in what are simply - unknown and uncharted waters for banks and their customers.

I expect, at the end of this, to still be a customer of Lloyds and, I can assure you, one that will never ever be pissed around again.

Know your rights. Use them. But keep an eye on the fact that, despite what you know - we still have to live in the real world.

I couched the letter to Lloyds, armed with what I have learned here (and in other places) and had to use my brain to work out how I could use these rights and this knowledge to "get the ball rolling" in my favour. It would not serve my purpose to bring down the bank, but it serves my purpose to make them think that this is what I want - and give them proof that I could. Like common law, common sense has always dictated that the loudest, the most threatening and the person that can use all of these together to achieve his end will always come out on top and, destroying the system is not always desirable - but controlling it always is.

I guess that this makes me a communist capitalist - and, on balance, I am not too unhappy with that.

I apologise. Whenever I get on a "roll", I always produce a massive post. I just have to get it off my chest so - If I've bored you all - sorry - but I feel better.

Paul

NOT Nanny :)
"Smile" they said, "It could be worse".

So I smiled - and it was worse.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby arten » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:53 am

Hi Paul

In this link you will see the letters I have sent to my bank and their responses

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1854

Seeing that you have managed to orchestrate a successful outcome, maybe some advice from you would be nice :D

Or better still how about putting up the letters you have sent thus far!

Best
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby marknd1997 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:00 pm

The main tpuc website demonstrate success stories!

This one could be classified as a successful story, as well:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2675&p=23256&hilit=sky+tv#p23256
All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full.
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Re: Sucess Stories

Postby Psyrus » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:13 pm

Natural Person(s)’’ means a living soul, as distinguished from an artificial person created by law. See Blacks Law Dictionary, 7th ed.



Dunno if someone already made that point i only skim read the posts, but yeah, there it is.
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