Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby garbal » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:25 pm

tayga wrote:As I tried to say in the closed thread, I think there is a big difference between the actions of a corporate shark like Monsanto and the genetic arguments.

There is no doubt that what Monsanto are trying to do is undermine growers' independence so they can screw the maximum profit from their enterprise. People like Monsanto also produce unique gene sequences so they can enforce copyright.

But I haven't seen convincing argument to support the genetic risks. Furthermore, species have been swapping genetic material forever, as far as we can tell. Some of the most studied species, bacteria such as Streptococcus pyogenes, Listeria monocytogenes and the smallpox virus all share gene sequence with human DNA. Not that these are great examples but interspecies exchange is not unnatural as is claimed.

As I said before, the arguments against incorporating genes for antibiotic resistance are hardly relevant in light of the fact that antibiotics are fast becoming obsolete due to clinical practice.

GM itself is not inherently bad. It is a technology like any other which can do good. The problem is that is has mostly been used by corporate bastards who want to use it for profit but some are using it to benefit others.



what a wise post, far more so than all the hysteria above
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby bodge » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:06 pm

Tayga, you have totally missed the point, plants and animals have been swapping genes with each other since time began hence the diversity. This is called "NATURAL SELECTION". Genetically Modifying a plant is absolutely NOT the same thing and is inherently very dangerous.
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby marmalade » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:12 pm

Bodge, I'm pretty sure that Natural Selection doesn't involve plants and animals "swapping genes".

Tayga, I fully agree with you that GM techniques are not inherently bad. I'm sure with a good few years of decent (uncorrupt) testing behind it, plants could be made stronger, disease resilient, etc at no cost to human or animal health.

However, like other systems & technologies we possess which aren't inherently bad, GM is also open to abuse and corruption, and I'm afraid at the moment, with the people we have "in charge" I don't trust any of them to make the right decisions about GM.

There is far too much mainstream info biased towards the biotech companies, and not nearly enough of the "against" information; and as I have mentioned again and again, the products they come up with need to be rigorously tested to ensure that ten, twenty or a hundred years down the line there are no harmful health effects.

And above all, if GM is to be used morally, it would have to be done freely (by which I mean no patents owned by corporations, and that farmers would have a genuinely free choice over the products they choose to grow).

This clearly isn't happening right now, therefore I do not support GM currently.
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby bodge » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:17 pm

When one breed of dog mates with a different breed you get something different "different genes other than what it normally have got. If you splice a plant with another plant you get another gene pool :D
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby tayga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:17 pm

bodge wrote:Tayga, you have totally missed the point, plants and animals have been swapping genes with each other since time began hence the diversity. This is called "NATURAL SELECTION". Genetically Modifying a plant is absolutely NOT the same thing and is inherently very dangerous.


Bodge, genetic change arising from mutation or gene transfer is most definitely NOT natural selection but it does, as you say, produce diversity. Selection occurs after mutation due to environmental pressure and leads to ‘survival of the fittest’ for the environment.

Like their manmade equivalents, natural mutations and gene transfers are modifications of organisms and have just as much inherent danger attached. To believe otherwise is irrational. What intelligence is supposed to exist in nature that carefully avoids dangerous gene manipulations and only carries out the safe ones?

What is dangerous is unnatural selection by commercial agriculture that narrows species diversity to achieve those few species that produce maximum yield at the lowest cost. But that is what mankind has been doing for thousands of years. It has nothing to do with GM.

There is a tendency to assume that natural is universally good and manmade is universally bad or worse than natural. That simply isn’t true. Smallpox, malaria and cholera are all natural as are earthquakes, meteorites and sunburn. The wheel, AC current and solar panels are all manmade.

Mistakes made in applying technology in the past (lead in petrol, CFCs – good old Thomas Midgley) are no justification for generalising and assuming that all new technology is harmful.

What does the harm is the same as always; the pursuit of money at all costs.
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby tayga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:20 pm

marmalade wrote:And above all, if GM is to be used morally, it would have to be done freely (by which I mean no patents owned by corporations, and that farmers would have a genuinely free choice over the products they choose to grow).


Agreed. There's the main problem with GM.
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby tayga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:28 pm

bodge wrote:When one breed of dog mates with a different breed you get something different "different genes other than what it normally have got. If you splice a plant with another plant you get another gene pool :D


All breeds of dog are of the same species. One breed mating with another breed is like an Englishman mating with a Mexican woman, for example. The offspring is still the same species but the genotype is a mixture. And that's a good thing! Ask my mate Rafaele :D
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby bodge » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:47 pm

I have an idea. (No, it was not beginner’s luck.) The idea came to me while listening to University of Chicago​ evolutionary geneticist Jerry A. Coyne give a talk on a cruise ship in early March. If you remember last month’s column, you already know about the hardships of science lectures on the high seas, where “buffeted” refers not to the effects of winds and waves but to the feeling you get after one too many trips to the smorgasbord. But I digest. I mean, digress.

Creationists argue that speciation has never been seen. Here’s part of a December 31, 2008, posting by Jonathan Wells on the Web site of the antithetically named Discovery Institute: “Darwinism depends on the splitting of one species into two, which then diverge and split and diverge and split, over and over again, to produce the branching-tree pattern required by Darwin’s theory. And this sort of speciation has never been observed.”

The claim makes me think of the trial where a man was charged with biting off another man’s ear in a bar fight. (Incredibly, Mike Tyson​ was not involved.) An eyewitness to the fracas took the stand. The defense attorney asked, “Did you actually see with your own eyes my client bite off the ear in question?” The witness said, “No.” The attorney pounced: “So how can you be so sure that the defendant actually bit off the ear?” To which the witness replied, “I saw him spit it out.” We have the fossils, the intermediate forms, the comparative anatomy, the genomic homologies—we’ve seen what evolution spits out.

Back to the ship. Coyne’s address was on the vast amounts of incontrovertible scientific evidence available for evolution. (To recapitulate the cruise experience, you can simply read Coyne’s new book, Why Evolution Is True, while overeating.) As Darwin did before him, Coyne noted that the development of new breeds through artificial selection is a good model for the evo­lution of new species by natural selection. He then offered a comment about dog breeds, also found in his book: “If somehow the recognized breeds existed only as fossils, paleontol­ogists would consider them not one species but many—certainly more than the thirty-six species of wild dogs that live in nature today.”

Even incredibly closely related populations of organisms are typically considered different species if there is some kind of reproductive barrier between them. And it doesn’t have to be mismatched chromosomes. Could be a mountain if you’re not a goat. Could be a molehill if you’re not a mole.

Duke University​’s Mohamed Noor, who was also lecturing onboard the ship, studies such barriers. His accomplishments include winning the Linnean Society’s Darwin-Wallace Medal, given out every 50 years for evolutionary research. If Jonathan Wells studied the right 49-year period, he might argue that it’s impossible for anyone to win the award because that kind of recognition has never been observed.

Noor looked at the fruit flies Drosophila pseudoobscura and D. persimilis. In the lab, he can get a female D. pseudoobscura to mate and produce some fertile offspring with a male D. persimilis. Out in the world, however, it doesn’t happen—she hates his smell, his song, his mating dance.

So here’s the idea you’ve been patiently waiting for: let’s simply say that dog breeds are different species. Take two that Coyne highlights for their differences—the 180-pound English Mastiff​ and the two-pound Chihuahua. They’re both considered members of Canis lupus familiaris, and in principle artificial insemination could produce some sort of mix or possibly an exploding Chihuahua. But face it, the only shot a male Chihuahua has with a female Mastiff involves rock climbing or spelunking equipment.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... t-proposal
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby tayga » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:55 am

Bodge, that's a really nice argument and one I haven't come across before.

As someone who as no capital invested in the dogma (snigger) of biology, I think it would be an interesting idea to describe as different species those groups which DON'T interbreed rather than those that CAN'T (which is the existing definition). It's one of those ideas that sounds like it could open new doors of understanding although I don't see it being adopted very soon by the Church of Biology. :D
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Re: Scientists Under Attack Part 2

Postby Thomas » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:58 pm

.


Has anyone found one yet.

Show us one good example of GM

Do remember it is not even necessary. The land can lay fallow (seven, Compleatly) all years.

And Yields: We do not need it nor Petrol Chemical fertiliser.

Permaculture for example, Foggage farming, where the cattle, sheep livestock stay out on pasture all year (no hay making, no mucking out, very little work)


“Darwinism depends on the splitting of one species into two, which then diverge and split and diverge and split, over and over again, to produce the branching-tree pattern required by Darwin’s theory. And this sort of speciation has never been observed.”



http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... &start=130

bodge wrote:

Allopatric speciation occurs when there is extreme geographical isolation

No because the banana plant was not created in an isolationist environment with nothing else around it, so the new code was written after adaptation to the new plant. You can imagine a new plant appearing in an area and the butterflies or moths decide to try it out :lol: "ear flutterbutt, check out the new plant its nice" :lol: :lol: and so the liking was written into the code of the newly morphed moths.


Thomas wrote:
"so the new code was written after adaptation to the new plant."

Would that be due to loss of information, not the addition of new genetic information?

But can they eat what other moths eat? That the distant parent moths ate? Or breed with the original parent distant population?

No one has yet found a mutation that adds new complex coded heritable information to any organism.

Allopatric speciation disables the function of the chromosomes to pair and crossover during the first mitotic division following fertilization. This makes the species no longer able to reproduce with the original parent population even in captive situations.

And can a monkey or ape breed with mankind and also which is the most advanced? Don't laugh, :) some seem more stupid than animals. (But that is another entity)

"which is the most advanced?" I.E. Which would come first Man or the Ape. So Darwinism is backwards.

And also the one blob, is wrong. I.E. Not Man from Apes or Apes from Man etc.

Not Darwinism all from one blob, but "after their own kinds" hence no true transitional fossils. If there is organic life all around that we see, why could it not evolve at different times and places "after their own kind." And why did organic evolution stop "after their own kinds" as there is no fossil record that shows that it continued, other that some going extict and some still here, that go right the way back in the fossil record.
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