Stop and Seach, baliffs and questions

[Olson]

Hello. I am finding this all fascinating reading and I'm sure the answer to my question(s) are in here somewhere however I've yet to locate them. I hope some people won't mind helping or pointing me in the right direction. I'm also a bit blown away and confused by everything at the moment as well so please excuse my rambling, I think I have too many questions about how I can use this information in my life but I'll try to be brief.

A couple of years ago, whilst walking back from being at the beach, past The Brighton Centre, my friend and I were followed for some time by two shady looking fellows, who disappeared to be replaced by two policy men (I don't know if the two events are related) intent on asking what we're were doing. This was at the time of the party political thing, whatever they do down there so there was a pretty hefty police presence in the area, including armed officers outside the building and those big huge concrete bollard things.

I initially refused to give my name to which the officer stated some anti-terror legislation and said he was entitled to find out bla bla. After I asked why and stuff, (I don't remember really it was some time ago) the conversation went round to well if I won't tell him then we'll have to go down the station and sort it out there. I asked which station it would be as I happen to know the local one is closer to my house than where we were and we were quite a step away from being home so I kind of thought I would be OK as I'd get a ride half way home.

More threats from the officer and I gave in.. in a really STUPiD.. (and I know it was), way. I know shouldn't have done it but I just made some random name and D.O.B up (april 1st of all things) to which the officer warbled something in the radio and we were free to go. phew and thank god he didn't ask me what my star sign or something was. He didn't ask to search me or anything.

I suppose my question is, because I am on the police database, (I've had a couple of run ins, nothing too serious; wont go in to it here) what happens when we get to the station and they want to put my fingers through that machine to find out my identity... can I refuse and what are the implications if I do?

Is the answer just to say nothing and eventually, whatever the circumstances, (so long as there's no evidence of, you know, something serious) they'll let you go?

The other challenge I have at the moment is to do with council tax. I admit to being ignorant about everything to do with this stuff, I've just been doing what I'm told - more or less - Anyway I had the summons and didn't go to court to contest my liability to pay so it got passed on to a bailiff who's been trying to recover the debt. I got some card from him via post that I did pay some money back on but I stopped paying anything since January. Last conversation with him before Christmas, (again on the phone I've never met the guy) was if I didn't keep my arrangement he would have to "go down the path of committal" which apparently "nobody wants". I have no idea what "committal" is but it sounds like prison, which is not on my list of places to visit. Either way I haven't heard from the bailiff or the company for a good 7 months. I don't know if there's a question I can formulate about that, perhaps I should think harder but any advice would be good, especially given I'm going to be "liable" for council tax this year, and the next, etc.

Hope you can understand how all this stuff can seem a bit confusing and daunting please excuse my ignorance, I am trying to learn.

Thanks for your time.

Olson

[kazz67]

Hi Olson, welcome!

Hello. I am finding this all fascinating reading and I'm sure the answer to my question(s) are in here somewhere however I've yet to locate them. I hope some people won't mind helping or pointing me in the right direction. I'm also a bit blown away and confused by everything at the moment as well so please excuse my rambling, I think I have too many questions about how I can use this information in my life but I'll try to be brief.

A couple of years ago, whilst walking back from being at the beach, past The Brighton Centre, my friend and I were followed for some time by two shady looking fellows, who disappeared to be replaced by two policy men (I don't know if the two events are related) intent on asking what we're were doing. This was at the time of the party political thing, whatever they do down there so there was a pretty hefty police presence in the area, including armed officers outside the building and those big huge concrete bollard things.

I initially refused to give my name to which the officer stated some anti-terror legislation and said he was entitled to find out bla bla. After I asked why and stuff, (I don't remember really it was some time ago) the conversation went round to well if I won't tell him then we'll have to go down the station and sort it out there. I asked which station it would be as I happen to know the local one is closer to my house than where we were and we were quite a step away from being home so I kind of thought I would be OK as I'd get a ride half way home.

More threats from the officer and I gave in.. in a really STUPiD.. (and I know it was), way. I know shouldn't have done it but I just made some random name and D.O.B up (april 1st of all things) to which the officer warbled something in the radio and we were free to go. phew and thank god he didn't ask me what my star sign or something was. He didn't ask to search me or anything.

I suppose my question is, because I am on the police database, (I've had a couple of run ins, nothing too serious; wont go in to it here) what happens when we get to the station and they want to put my fingers through that machine to find out my identity... can I refuse and what are the implications if I do?

Is the answer just to say nothing and eventually, whatever the circumstances, (so long as there's no evidence of, you know, something serious) they'll let you go?

I'm a bit confused by this - have the asked you to go to the station or is this for future reference?
Anyway, take a look at these excellent video's on dealing with the police from the antiterrorist - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGHQDquN ... playnext=1

The other challenge I have at the moment is to do with council tax. I admit to being ignorant about everything to do with this stuff, I've just been doing what I'm told - more or less - Anyway I had the summons and didn't go to court to contest my liability to pay so it got passed on to a bailiff who's been trying to recover the debt. I got some card from him via post that I did pay some money back on but I stopped paying anything since January. Last conversation with him before Christmas, (again on the phone I've never met the guy) was if I didn't keep my arrangement he would have to "go down the path of committal" which apparently "nobody wants". I have no idea what "committal" is but it sounds like prison, which is not on my list of places to visit. Either way I haven't heard from the bailiff or the company for a good 7 months. I don't know if there's a question I can formulate about that, perhaps I should think harder but any advice would be good, especially given I'm going to be "liable" for council tax this year, and the next, etc.

Hope you can understand how all this stuff can seem a bit confusing and daunting please excuse my ignorance, I am trying to learn.

Thanks for your time.

Olson

Sounds to me as if the original debt collector has sold the debt on. If and when you hear from them, ask to see the contract you have with them. - A contract must be signed by both parties in order to be valid. If you want you can ask to see the loss you have caused them by way of their signed accounts. And, again, you can ask them to prove that you, the human being, are liable for the debt, that you are one in the same as your 'legal person', though there is some debate over the strength of this particular instrument at the moment.

There are loads of templates on the board that fit any number of situations. A word of caution though - if you don't understand it, don't use it until you do (we're a decent bunch of people, always happy to explain and try to help a fellow traveller).

Peace n love,
Kazz. x

[Olson]

I'm a bit confused by this - have the asked you to go to the station or is this for future reference?
Anyway, take a look at these excellent video's on dealing with the police from the antiterrorist - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGHQDquN ... playnext=1

Hello, thanks for the reply. To clarify, the officer stated that if I didn't give my name and DOB, he would take me to the station. On what grounds I don't know but he seemed to think that my failure to comply was reason enough. This was all a couple of years ago so for future reference.

I've been watching much of the anti-terrorist, and thank you for pointing out the videos. I happen to have seen those, I suppose I was looking for further clarification.

So it sounds like by not saying anything and/or not consenting to the "contract" offered by the police I am under no obligation to provide fingerprints for their ID machine at their office, should I be taken in for questioning. It isn't something that happens to me often by the way, but I have felt kind of violated by their seemingly omnipotent power from time to time and feel like standing up for myself in the future.

The legal person Vs Human being thing is very interesting, however as you say, unless one can thoroughly grasp it and it proves to have "legs" as it were, I will be leaving well enough alone.

Good stuff! Thanks again for your reply.

Regards.

[jobo]

they cant take you to the station, they can arrest you and take you to the station, at which point giving your N&A is a good idea if you w3ant to get out of there any time soon

they can arrest to facilitate prompt investigation of an offence, however unless they have an actual offence they have reasonable suspicion of you committing they cant arrest you,

some coppers think not giving N&A is obstruction , which of course its not, not can they randomly applie the AT laws to any and all events

the problem is, in most cases they will take you into custody if you don't comply, and then your left arguing wrongful arrest etc